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I might as well get started

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I am Kenny Arnett and I currently am an

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assistant professor of psychology at

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Southern Oregon University but this is

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my second incarnation I was previously a

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physical chemist and I am embarking on a

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third incarnation soon I will no longer

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be a psychologist I'll be a rugged

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consciousness researcher so I think I'm

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in the right place for that but we're

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my interests are in consciousness

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obviously pulling together my background

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in chemistry physics mathematics

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psychology philosophy and trying to make

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a nice soup of it all and try to come

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out with some answers that at least I

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can pretend to understand at some point

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so today I'd like to give you just a

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small piece of my work and a very recent

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extension of it that attempts to come

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close to answering Klaus question a

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couple of days ago do we have any basis

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for believing that consciousness could

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exist outside of the body

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he said that we currently don't have

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such a basis I would like to give you

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some ideas that might provide such a

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basis if I could be so presumptuous and

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the computer seems to be set up okay

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please forgive the primitive nature of

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my presentation technology this is poor

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persons PowerPoint otherwise known as

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word and you see my affiliation and the

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title of my talk philosophical

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substance-abuse distorting Descartes and

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dismissing dualism I'm going to try to

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come to the defense of Rene Descartes

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and we learned recently that I may be

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able to make him feel better in his time

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by going backwards myself so

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consciousness what is it we don't really

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know and yet we all have it the

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mind-body problem what is that well

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that's deeply related to the question of

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what is consciousness and where does

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consciousness originate the mind-body

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problem is the question of what is the

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relationship between mind and body does

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body create mind or is there something

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else going on and two of the major

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historical points of view our first

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dualism the idea that in mind is primary

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independent not physical and does not

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die with the body and does not depend on

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the body for its existence this was the

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predominant view of philosophers and

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everybody on the planet for a very long

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time according to popular and Eccles but

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as scientists began to construct the

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scientific method and science advanced

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over time dualism started to lose its

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respect and in fact ironically it was

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Rene Descartes that helped lead to the

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demise of dualism even though he was one

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of its primary proponents the idea that

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rod rose instead of dualism was

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materialism which an earlier speaker

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called physicalism and that's really

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essentially the same thing the idea that

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the mind is a product of the living

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brain and ceases to exist when the brain

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meets its death dualism in philosophical

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and

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psychological service circles has been

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beaten to death and buried it no longer

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is viable it is over anyone who believes

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in dualism that best is diluted and so

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that carts view of substance from his

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meditations on First Philosophy this is

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something that I think the physicalist

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should read so that they know what it is

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they're denying and denouncing before

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they do it Rene Descartes had several

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ideas had in his idea his mind trying to

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distinguish between mind and body

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he said that both mind and body are

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substances what is the substance it's a

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thing that's capable of existing

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independently I found that a rather

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oblique definition when I first started

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studying this but lately I started to

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understand when I heard some ideas about

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from Aristotle an example of a non

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substance would be a shadow a shadow

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requires a source of light and an object

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it does not exist independently it

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cannot exist without those things but

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the source of light and the object can't

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exist without the shadow and can't exist

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independently so they would be made of a

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substance third Descartes said that the

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mind is a thinking and non extended

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substance and here's where he started to

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get into trouble with his third sentence

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whereas the body is non thinking and

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extended what did he mean by extension

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well it's rather complicated I don't

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have the time to stand here and read all

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the quotes that I provide I'm hoping

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that you're scanning those as I talk but

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his idea of extension included the idea

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that two things with extension cannot

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occupy the same physical space that is

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the exclusionary occupation of space by

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matter which is a well-known principle

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in physics and accordingly he said it is

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certain that I am really distinct from

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my body and can exist without it and

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that's a point-blank statement of

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dualism v he defined an extended

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substances having three dimensions with

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shape and motion the body as an extended

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substance also has the property of the

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seclusion area occupation of space as I

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was just saying seventh mind and body

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differ further in that body is divisible

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physically it can be cut apart whereas

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mind he says is utterly indivisible and

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by that he means with physical means

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like knives or whatever and then lastly

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the human body is an interactive union

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of mind and body and here's another

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place he got himself in trouble because

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he could not explain how the interaction

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occurs and this above all else has been

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cited as a reason why it's obvious the

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dualism is false so objections there are

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many I just picked one because it's the

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usual objection and it's what I just

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stated if the brain is physical and the

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mind is non-physical then how can the

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brain and the mind interact this is

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posed as a rhetorical question a

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question would the answer already

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incorporate it into it by using the term

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non-physical this way the person asking

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such a question is implicitly defining a

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non-physical entity as not able to

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interact with a physical entity that's

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what makes it non-physical and so the

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question contains the answer and we're

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supposed to say oh you're right it's

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over there is no interactionism there is

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no duality there is no dualism well

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that's a bit of taking Descartes too far

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in my opinion and materialists have been

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at this for centuries picking on foreign

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aid the card and he they have

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exaggerated and sharpened the other

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distinctions that he made into a

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description of the non-physical

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substance as something that's really

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untenable the non-physical mind has

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neither mass nor energy is not

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localizable in any way and space is not

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extended in space does not exist in

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space has no physical properties

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whatsoever has nothing in common with

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physical things and is completely

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independent of anything material and

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works in different independently of the

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brain okay that's too much they've gone

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over the ledge here and to tell an

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interactionist that his point of view is

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that the mind works independently of the

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brain is to not listen when the guy says

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I'm an inner

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so no this is not what Descartes thought

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however it's become the way he's

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described my objection if the body and

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the mind both fit the definition of

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substance according to Descartes who

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coined the term to describe things that

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are substantial then these two examples

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of substances must share some common

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properties that is the definition of

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substance they both have to meet that

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definition and this point seems to us

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have escaped the physicalist materialist

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thinkers so how do we gain traction on

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such a slippery problem how do we

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approach the idea and and generate some

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ideas about what exactly could another

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sub size matter

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be and mean so we need some empirical

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data and we also need some theoretical

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help and I'm going to ask Albert

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Einstein for help today and I'm going

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through with apologies ask Brian Greene

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for some help he was here last weekend

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for the ice ceem conference and he was

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shall we say not exactly intrigued by my

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ideas and so I apologize to him here my

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invoking him in this talk if he were

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here he would be outraged and I'm sorry

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he's not here what do I call empirical

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data here's where I get myself in even

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more trouble the near-death experience

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most of you have probably heard of this

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this occurs usually when a person comes

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close to physical death or actually

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physically dies and this isn't